Hi there,

Could somebody point me to the official FAA document that describes the
calls required for all stages of an VOR/DME approach including the hold
(beacon outbound / beacon inbound etc...)

Thanks,

Derek...

Derek Fage wrote:
> Hi there,
>
> Could somebody point me to the official FAA document that describes the
> calls required for all stages of an VOR/DME approach including the hold
> (beacon outbound / beacon inbound etc...)
>
How about the AIM? 5-3-2, 5-3-3

On Mon, 8 Nov 2004 19:08:05 -0000, "Derek Fage" >
wrote:

>Hi there,
>
>Could somebody point me to the official FAA document that describes the
>calls required for all stages of an VOR/DME approach including the hold
>(beacon outbound / beacon inbound etc...)
>
>Thanks,
>
>Derek...
>

There is no listing of approach-specific calls.

There is one "regulation" concerning required radio calls in Title 14 of
the Code of Federal Regulations pertaining to small GA a/c:

=========================================
91.183 IFR radio communications.

The pilot in command of each aircraft operated under IFR in controlled
airspace shall have a continuous watch maintained on the appropriate
frequency and shall report by radio as soon as possible—

(a) The time and altitude of passing each designated reporting point, or
the reporting points specified by ATC, except that while the aircraft is
under radar control, only the passing of those reporting points
specifically requested by ATC need be reported;

(b) Any unforecast weather conditions encountered; and

(c) Any other information relating to the safety of flight.
=========================================

In a related but somewhat different category, there are rules requiring
ATC contact in different airspaces.

There are also "recommendations" in the Aeronautical Information Manual:

==================================
5-3-3. Additional Reports

a. The following reports should be made to ATC or FSS facilities
without a specific ATC request:

1. At all times.

(a) When vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight
level for a newly assigned altitude or flight level.

(b) When an altitude change will be made if operating on a
clearance specifying VFR-on-top.

(c) When unable to climb/descend at a rate of a least
500 feet per minute.

(d) When approach has been missed. (Request clearance for
specific action; i.e., to alternative airport, another approach, etc.)

(e) Change in the average true airspeed (at cruising altitude)
when it varies by 5 percent or 10 knots (whichever is greater) from that
filed in the flight plan.

(f) The time and altitude or flight level upon reaching a
holding fix or point to which cleared.

(g) When leaving any assigned holding fix or point.

NOTE-
The reports in subparagraphs (f) and (g) may be omitted by
pilots of aircraft involved in instrument training at military terminal
area facilities when radar service is being provided.

(h) Any loss, in controlled airspace, of VOR, TACAN, ADF, low
frequency navigation receiver capability, GPS anomalies while using
installed IFR-certified GPS/GNSS receivers, complete or partial loss of ILS
receiver capability or impairment of air/ground communications capability.
Reports should include aircraft identification, equipment affected, degree
to which the capability to operate under IFR in the ATC system is impaired,
and the nature and extent of assistance desired from ATC.

NOTE-
1. Other equipment installed in an aircraft may effectively
impair safety and/or the ability to operate under IFR. If such equipment
(e.g. airborne weather radar) malfunctions and in the pilot's judgment
either safety or IFR capabilities are affected, reports should be made as
above.

2. When reporting GPS anomalies, include the location and
altitude of the anomaly. Be specific when describing the location and
include duration of the anomaly if necessary.

(i) Any information relating to the safety of flight.

2. When not in radar contact.

(a) When leaving final approach fix inbound on final approach
(nonprecision approach) or when leaving the outer marker or fix used in
lieu of the outer marker inbound on final approach (precision approach).

(b) A corrected estimate at anytime it becomes apparent that an
estimate as previously submitted is in error in excess of 3 minutes.

b. Pilots encountering weather conditions which have not been forecast,
or hazardous conditions which have been forecast, are expected to forward a
report of such weather to ATC.

==================================





--ron

Thanks Ron,

I should have said that I'd looked through the AIM, but it does not really
"spell it out".

I was relly looking for something that documented the precise required calls
for entering the hold, calling beacon outbound (and whether you should say
"in the procedure" or "ready for the procedure" and then beacon inbound
etc..

I've found a few references on the internet using Google to search for
"beacon outbound", but these tend to be either flight reports or
"non-official" sources, and I was hoping for something a bit more "formal".

I must admit that seeing how the FAA are keen on regulations and
documentation, that this is an area that seems to be lacking in definitive
requirements.

Interestingly, even the AIM recomendations seem unusually vague on this
aspect of RT procedure.

In the absence of anything official, what about some input from the ATC
guys - what are you looking for (specifically with regard to the beacon
outbound and beacon inbound calls which I'm getting some conflicting
information on from talking to colleagues).

Regards,

Derek...

"Ron Rosenfeld" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 8 Nov 2004 19:08:05 -0000, "Derek Fage" >
> wrote:
>
>>Hi there,
>>
>>Could somebody point me to the official FAA document that describes the
>>calls required for all stages of an VOR/DME approach including the hold
>>(beacon outbound / beacon inbound etc...)
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Derek...
>>
>
> There is no listing of approach-specific calls.
>
> There is one "regulation" concerning required radio calls in Title 14 of
> the Code of Federal Regulations pertaining to small GA a/c:
>
> =========================================
> 91.183 IFR radio communications.
>
> The pilot in command of each aircraft operated under IFR in controlled
> airspace shall have a continuous watch maintained on the appropriate
> frequency and shall report by radio as soon as possible-
>
> (a) The time and altitude of passing each designated reporting point, or
> the reporting points specified by ATC, except that while the aircraft is
> under radar control, only the passing of those reporting points
> specifically requested by ATC need be reported;
>
> (b) Any unforecast weather conditions encountered; and
>
> (c) Any other information relating to the safety of flight.
> =========================================
>
> In a related but somewhat different category, there are rules requiring
> ATC contact in different airspaces.
>
> There are also "recommendations" in the Aeronautical Information Manual:
>
> ==================================
> 5-3-3. Additional Reports
>
> a. The following reports should be made to ATC or FSS facilities
> without a specific ATC request:
>
> 1. At all times.
>
> (a) When vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight
> level for a newly assigned altitude or flight level.
>
> (b) When an altitude change will be made if operating on a
> clearance specifying VFR-on-top.
>
> (c) When unable to climb/descend at a rate of a least
> 500 feet per minute.
>
> (d) When approach has been missed. (Request clearance for
> specific action; i.e., to alternative airport, another approach, etc.)
>
> (e) Change in the average true airspeed (at cruising altitude)
> when it varies by 5 percent or 10 knots (whichever is greater) from that
> filed in the flight plan.
>
> (f) The time and altitude or flight level upon reaching a
> holding fix or point to which cleared.
>
> (g) When leaving any assigned holding fix or point.
>
> NOTE-
> The reports in subparagraphs (f) and (g) may be omitted by
> pilots of aircraft involved in instrument training at military terminal
> area facilities when radar service is being provided.
>
> (h) Any loss, in controlled airspace, of VOR, TACAN, ADF, low
> frequency navigation receiver capability, GPS anomalies while using
> installed IFR-certified GPS/GNSS receivers, complete or partial loss of
> ILS
> receiver capability or impairment of air/ground communications capability.
> Reports should include aircraft identification, equipment affected, degree
> to which the capability to operate under IFR in the ATC system is
> impaired,
> and the nature and extent of assistance desired from ATC.
>
> NOTE-
> 1. Other equipment installed in an aircraft may effectively
> impair safety and/or the ability to operate under IFR. If such equipment
> (e.g. airborne weather radar) malfunctions and in the pilot's judgment
> either safety or IFR capabilities are affected, reports should be made as
> above.
>
> 2. When reporting GPS anomalies, include the location and
> altitude of the anomaly. Be specific when describing the location and
> include duration of the anomaly if necessary.
>
> (i) Any information relating to the safety of flight.
>
> 2. When not in radar contact.
>
> (a) When leaving final approach fix inbound on final approach
> (nonprecision approach) or when leaving the outer marker or fix used in
> lieu of the outer marker inbound on final approach (precision approach).
>
> (b) A corrected estimate at anytime it becomes apparent that an
> estimate as previously submitted is in error in excess of 3 minutes.
>
> b. Pilots encountering weather conditions which have not been forecast,
> or hazardous conditions which have been forecast, are expected to forward
> a
> report of such weather to ATC.
>
> ==================================
>
>
>
>
>
> --ron

"Derek Fage" > wrote in news:418fc41a$1
@news.itconsult.net:

> Hi there,
>
> Could somebody point me to the official FAA document that describes the
> calls required for all stages of an VOR/DME approach including the hold
> (beacon outbound / beacon inbound etc...)
>
> Thanks,
>
> Derek...
>
>

What is special about a VOR/DME approach with respect to the radio calls?
You do all the approaches the same way - get an approach clearance, change
to advisory frequency, announce your arrival and cancel with ATC. If it is
a towered airport, you also need a landing clearance but you don't have to
cancel.




Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
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On Mon, 8 Nov 2004 20:37:30 -0000, "Derek Fage" >
wrote:

>In the absence of anything official

Common sense, and an attempt to minimize air time would be useful.

For example, you have been requested to report PT inbound:

"Foobar Approach, N12345 PT inbound"


--ron

If practicing an approach under the hood in VFR wx to
an uncontrolled airport, give your position in terms
that VFR only pilots can understand. Many VFR pilots
don't know what an outer markers or intersections are,
let alone their locations. Same goes for the IFR missed
approach procedure.
--
Chuck Forsberg www.omen.com 503-614-0430
Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications
Omen Technology Inc "The High Reliability Software"
10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231 FAX 629-0665

"Chuck Forsberg" > wrote in message
ldomain...
>
> If practicing an approach under the hood in VFR wx to
> an uncontrolled airport, give your position in terms
> that VFR only pilots can understand. Many VFR pilots
> don't know what an outer markers or intersections are,
> let alone their locations. Same goes for the IFR missed
> approach procedure.
>

Advisory Circular 90-42F "Traffic Advisory Practices at Airports Without
Operating Control Towers" provides examples of self-announce phraseologies
for various situations. It provides the following for practice instrument
approaches:

"STRAWN TRAFFIC, CESSNA TWO ONE FOUR THREE QUEBEC (NAME-FINAL APPROACH FIX)
INBOUND DESCENDING THROUGH (ALTITUDE) PRACTICE (TYPE) APPROACH RUNWAY THREE
FIVE STRAWN"

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

> "Chuck Forsberg" > wrote in message
> ldomain...
>
>>If practicing an approach under the hood in VFR wx to
>>an uncontrolled airport, give your position in terms
>>that VFR only pilots can understand. Many VFR pilots
>>don't know what an outer markers or intersections are,
>>let alone their locations. Same goes for the IFR missed
>>approach procedure.
>>
>
>
> Advisory Circular 90-42F "Traffic Advisory Practices at Airports Without
> Operating Control Towers" provides examples of self-announce phraseologies
> for various situations. It provides the following for practice instrument
> approaches:
>
> "STRAWN TRAFFIC, CESSNA TWO ONE FOUR THREE QUEBEC (NAME-FINAL APPROACH FIX)
> INBOUND DESCENDING THROUGH (ALTITUDE) PRACTICE (TYPE) APPROACH RUNWAY THREE
> FIVE STRAWN"
>
>

How does that help a VFR pilot who not only has no approach plates but
doesn't even know what the final approach fix is? I usually state where
I am in relatio to the field, so many miles at a given direction along
with altitude and then mention that I'm on a practice approach.


Matt

Chuck Forsberg wrote:
> If practicing an approach under the hood in VFR wx to
> an uncontrolled airport, give your position in terms
> that VFR only pilots can understand.

Any time you are making reports on th CTAF it behooves you
to do so. Even IFR-savvy pilots may be unfamiliar with
intersection names unless they have committed that particular
approach to memory. "2 Mile final for runway 5" is much better
than "LOONY inbound" as a CTAF report.


However, we were talking about making reports to ATC.

Matt Whiting wrote:

>
> How does that help a VFR pilot who not only has no approach plates but
> doesn't even know what the final approach fix is?

Precisely. Doesn't even help an IFR pilot who doesn't have the plate
out (and at airports with multiple approaches, he may not even know
which approach you're using).

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
>
>> "Chuck Forsberg" > wrote in message
>> ldomain...
>>
>>>If practicing an approach under the hood in VFR wx to
>>>an uncontrolled airport, give your position in terms
>>>that VFR only pilots can understand. Many VFR pilots
>>>don't know what an outer markers or intersections are,
>>>let alone their locations. Same goes for the IFR missed
>>>approach procedure.
>>>
>>
>> Advisory Circular 90-42F "Traffic Advisory Practices at Airports Without
>> Operating Control Towers" provides examples of self-announce
>> phraseologies for various situations. It provides the following for
>> practice instrument approaches:
>>
>> "STRAWN TRAFFIC, CESSNA TWO ONE FOUR THREE QUEBEC
>> (NAME-FINAL APPROACH FIX) INBOUND DESCENDING
>> THROUGH (ALTITUDE) PRACTICE (TYPE) APPROACH RUNWAY
>> THREE FIVE STRAWN"
>>
>
> How does that help a VFR pilot who not only has no approach plates but
> doesn't even know what the final approach fix is?
>

It doesn't. I'm just the messenger. Don't shoot the messenger.


>
> I usually state where I am in relatio to the field, so many miles at a
> given
> direction along with altitude and then mention that I'm on a practice
> approach.
>

As do most. Personally, I prefer to hear reports over a known fix or
landmark or a DME distance. That way I know it's an accurate report and not
a semi-wild-ass-guess. I think you'd be surprised how inaccurate some
reports are.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

> "Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Chuck Forsberg" > wrote in message
ldomain...
>>>
>>>
>>>>If practicing an approach under the hood in VFR wx to
>>>>an uncontrolled airport, give your position in terms
>>>>that VFR only pilots can understand. Many VFR pilots
>>>>don't know what an outer markers or intersections are,
>>>>let alone their locations. Same goes for the IFR missed
>>>>approach procedure.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Advisory Circular 90-42F "Traffic Advisory Practices at Airports Without
>>>Operating Control Towers" provides examples of self-announce
>>>phraseologies for various situations. It provides the following for
>>>practice instrument approaches:
>>>
>>>"STRAWN TRAFFIC, CESSNA TWO ONE FOUR THREE QUEBEC
>>>(NAME-FINAL APPROACH FIX) INBOUND DESCENDING
>>>THROUGH (ALTITUDE) PRACTICE (TYPE) APPROACH RUNWAY
>>>THREE FIVE STRAWN"
>>>
>>
>>How does that help a VFR pilot who not only has no approach plates but
>>doesn't even know what the final approach fix is?
>>
>
>
> It doesn't. I'm just the messenger. Don't shoot the messenger.

I wasn't shooting. You'd know if I was shooting. :-)


>>I usually state where I am in relatio to the field, so many miles at a
>>given
>>direction along with altitude and then mention that I'm on a practice
>>approach.
>>
>
>
> As do most. Personally, I prefer to hear reports over a known fix or
> landmark or a DME distance. That way I know it's an accurate report and not
> a semi-wild-ass-guess. I think you'd be surprised how inaccurate some
> reports are.

I usually give the distance from the GPS, but, yes, I've heard some
really flakey reports. I was flying into AOO this summer and reported
10 miles out. A split second later a Piper Lance (as I recall) reported
10 miles out from a different direction. Since I was flying an Arrow, I
assumed he was faster than me and would get there slightly ahead of me.
I was on the downwind side of the active runway so I entered the
pattern abeam the field. I still couldn't pick him up and assumed he
was coming across the runway into the pattern so I was slightly
concerned about meeting him head-on. I called entering downwind abeam
the runway and had my landing light on so he could see me better. He
then called entering downwind abeam also. I was about to break off and
climb out when I picked him up. He was still two miles from the field
opposite the field from me and wasn't even close to the upwind leg let
alone across the field for downwind. And unless he was throttled way
back, he must have been closer to 13-15 miles out on his initial call-up.


Matt